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	<title>Comments on: Sparks fly between advisers</title>
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		<title>By: Majella</title>
		<link>http://www.goodreturns.co.nz/blog/sparks-fly-between-advisers/comment-page-1#comment-4038</link>
		<dc:creator>Majella</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 Apr 2008 20:58:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.goodreturns.co.nz/sparks-fly-between-advisers#comment-4038</guid>
		<description>Just going back to Wise Planning &amp; the $1,265 +GST per hour fee. I do recommend his website...for a laugh. Anyone can say what they&#039;ll CHARGE - the key is how much people will PAY, of course. One has to wonder how many clients have taken the 3 year &quot;Gold&quot; package, at $18,950 + GST? 

Perusing the other remuneration sources pages in the Disclosure Statement, imakes it utterly clear that the commssion &amp; brokerage income from product sales would provide somehwere between 30% &amp; 80% of his stated &quot;packages&quot; costs. 

Given that I provide most of the services Wise Planning states it can charge an annual fee for - starting at $5,620 + GST - clearly, I&#039;m a total mug. Oh well...happy clients who have confidence in their adviser is probably a more robust long-term model than a flashy set of fees, and likely unhappy punters.

How unhappy? Well, if you&#039;d paid $5,620 + GST to be &quot;coached&quot;, and then found that the $50K in Bridgecorp had been halved (or worse), AND the adviser had earned a 1% p.a. fee for the placement...well, ask yourself.

I&#039;ve come across this outfit from time to time over the years, but only ever met one &quot;client&quot; who had purchased a package . This client was struggling to pay the monthly $120 (around 10 years ago...the current fee structure certainly reflects inflation). He was, unfortunately, a long-term ACC claimant at the time. 

While practices such as Wise Planning have an appearance of professionalism &amp; respectability, it is a veneer oh-so-thin.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Just going back to Wise Planning &amp; the $1,265 +GST per hour fee. I do recommend his website&#8230;for a laugh. Anyone can say what they&#8217;ll CHARGE &#8211; the key is how much people will PAY, of course. One has to wonder how many clients have taken the 3 year &#8220;Gold&#8221; package, at $18,950 + GST? </p>
<p>Perusing the other remuneration sources pages in the Disclosure Statement, imakes it utterly clear that the commssion &amp; brokerage income from product sales would provide somehwere between 30% &amp; 80% of his stated &#8220;packages&#8221; costs. </p>
<p>Given that I provide most of the services Wise Planning states it can charge an annual fee for &#8211; starting at $5,620 + GST &#8211; clearly, I&#8217;m a total mug. Oh well&#8230;happy clients who have confidence in their adviser is probably a more robust long-term model than a flashy set of fees, and likely unhappy punters.</p>
<p>How unhappy? Well, if you&#8217;d paid $5,620 + GST to be &#8220;coached&#8221;, and then found that the $50K in Bridgecorp had been halved (or worse), AND the adviser had earned a 1% p.a. fee for the placement&#8230;well, ask yourself.</p>
<p>I&#8217;ve come across this outfit from time to time over the years, but only ever met one &#8220;client&#8221; who had purchased a package . This client was struggling to pay the monthly $120 (around 10 years ago&#8230;the current fee structure certainly reflects inflation). He was, unfortunately, a long-term ACC claimant at the time. </p>
<p>While practices such as Wise Planning have an appearance of professionalism &amp; respectability, it is a veneer oh-so-thin.</p>
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		<title>By: Red Dog The pirate Guy</title>
		<link>http://www.goodreturns.co.nz/blog/sparks-fly-between-advisers/comment-page-1#comment-3981</link>
		<dc:creator>Red Dog The pirate Guy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 27 Apr 2008 12:23:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.goodreturns.co.nz/sparks-fly-between-advisers#comment-3981</guid>
		<description>My apologies to Admin,who made the statement in regard to the 30% weighting for ING rather than BS,who I have incorrectly creited the remark to.
In regard to the Morningstar reports in regard to ING,I do not know on what basis they were compiled,but presumably they did not take into account the risk factors involved.
We all make mistakes,and most of us many of them,during our lifetime.
It is all very well being optimistic when property values are continually rising,but we have found ourselves at present  in an economic crisis not seen since the Great Depression.
Anyone who has not thought through the ultimate effects of ever increasing world oil consumption and subsequent repricing,would be wise to.
I have looked at the financial statements for Hanover Finance Limited Charging Group in respect of the 6 months ended 31 December 2007,which are attached to the Prospectus Extension Certificate dated 31/03/08.
I found them most interesting,especially alongside the excellent article by Denise McNabb of the Independent Financial Review dated 12 December 2007 entitled &#039;&#039;Hanover Property Loans Rolled Over &quot;
I note that SCF filed a Prospectus Extension Certificate on 18 april 2008,which is not yet available.
It will be interesting to view their six month financial statements to 31 December 2007.
I note that Tipene O&#039;Regan is a director of Hanover.
I recall an automotive engineer some years ago informing me that he observed the said director driving around Christchurch in a $300,000 Mercedes convertible.
I favour the image of Allan Hubbard with his VW Beetle.
Mind you,I know some people would always choose to invest with the Flash Harry types.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>My apologies to Admin,who made the statement in regard to the 30% weighting for ING rather than BS,who I have incorrectly creited the remark to.<br />
In regard to the Morningstar reports in regard to ING,I do not know on what basis they were compiled,but presumably they did not take into account the risk factors involved.<br />
We all make mistakes,and most of us many of them,during our lifetime.<br />
It is all very well being optimistic when property values are continually rising,but we have found ourselves at present  in an economic crisis not seen since the Great Depression.<br />
Anyone who has not thought through the ultimate effects of ever increasing world oil consumption and subsequent repricing,would be wise to.<br />
I have looked at the financial statements for Hanover Finance Limited Charging Group in respect of the 6 months ended 31 December 2007,which are attached to the Prospectus Extension Certificate dated 31/03/08.<br />
I found them most interesting,especially alongside the excellent article by Denise McNabb of the Independent Financial Review dated 12 December 2007 entitled &#8221;Hanover Property Loans Rolled Over &#8221;<br />
I note that SCF filed a Prospectus Extension Certificate on 18 april 2008,which is not yet available.<br />
It will be interesting to view their six month financial statements to 31 December 2007.<br />
I note that Tipene O&#8217;Regan is a director of Hanover.<br />
I recall an automotive engineer some years ago informing me that he observed the said director driving around Christchurch in a $300,000 Mercedes convertible.<br />
I favour the image of Allan Hubbard with his VW Beetle.<br />
Mind you,I know some people would always choose to invest with the Flash Harry types.</p>
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		<title>By: Red Dog The pirate Guy</title>
		<link>http://www.goodreturns.co.nz/blog/sparks-fly-between-advisers/comment-page-1#comment-3933</link>
		<dc:creator>Red Dog The pirate Guy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 25 Apr 2008 04:04:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.goodreturns.co.nz/sparks-fly-between-advisers#comment-3933</guid>
		<description>Yes,and for the record you can find that on the disclosure statement of Wise Planning Limited on page seven.http://www.thefinancialfreedomcoach.com.
The way the car sale,real estate and financial planning field is going at present,there might be a few relegated to car grooming.
Isn&#039;t that what Matthew Ridge and Brent Todd are finding very lucrative ?
If my reputation was as battered as badly as some planners eg Vestar,I&#039;d be cashing up and moving offshore.
The volume of advertising which Hanover is doing,reminds me of the volume of advertising carried out by Capital &amp; Merchant Finance,the company that if you looked at their website and asked to be directed to a planner,gave you only two options no matter what part of NZ you were in---Broadbase or Vestar.
I have had only one retired couple ask for advice in regard to these reverse mortgages.
The couple had a house worth about $600,000 and little cash income.
After reading the Sentinel brochure,I was very negative,and the conclusion we came to was for each of his five children to come up with say $2000 per annum,
which would in effect amount to a compulsory savings scheme for them,as they would end up with the house in due course.
The Herald reported that Tasman Mortgages limited,which apparently had funded 80% of the blue Chip Deals,had been sending out default letters.
They reported that TML was once owned by Blue Chip Financial Solutions Ltd,which I note was originally the cashed up shell NZ Salmon Company Ltd,and has interesting shareholders such as ANZ bank[and Mr Bryers of course.]
Indeed yes they did own 100% of TML until August 2007,when a 70% share was sold to Lombard Mortgages Limited.
BCFSL[now called Tasman Financial Group ltd] still own 30% of TML.
Some of the shareholders in Lombard Properties Limited must be rather embarrassed at the fact that a reported 2000 investors may lose their homes out of this mess.
With LML being 100% owned by Lombard Group Ltd whose directors include D A Graham and W P Jeffries,who are also substantial shareolders along with ex MP Hugh Templeton,it is not a pretty sight.
The question is,what is the primary source of the funds for the Blue Chip finance ?
I sent a copy of Chris Lee&#039;s interest ratings with an orange highlight on Lombard as an E rated investment,to some people who had unwittingly invested with a company called Lombard Finance &amp; Investments Limited.
I have not yet investigated where the paper trail leads. 
As for Dr Patrick Caragata,don&#039;t you remember Tony Alexander the BNZ economist printing in the media that economists get it wrong 80% of the time,and that there was no point asking him where to invest your money.
Economists are just another breed of reporters.
Gareth Morgan is the only economist I would go to see speak,purely because he is entertaining.
BS refers to ING.
I note from one disclosure statement from an ING planner,that the practice is required to invest 55% of overall client funds in ING products.
The widow with the $1,000,000 in ING Diversified Yield Fund was through ANZ bank,which must have had an internal directive to invest 100% of client funds in the one investment.
The lady would not have a clue what she was getting herself into,and if ANZ had told her to stick with term deposits,she would have followed their advice.
I note that the head of ANZ in NZ was making a speech to the effect that all the riske were fully disclosed to such clients.
If you put this lady on the stand in court,a judge would throw the book at ANZ for inept advice.
If ANZ do not front up to correct this mess,there will be litigation for sure.
I would therefore tend to conclude that the 30% level which BS mentions,sounds very credible.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yes,and for the record you can find that on the disclosure statement of Wise Planning Limited on page seven.<a href="http://www.thefinancialfreedomcoach.com" rel="nofollow">http://www.thefinancialfreedomcoach.com</a>.<br />
The way the car sale,real estate and financial planning field is going at present,there might be a few relegated to car grooming.<br />
Isn&#8217;t that what Matthew Ridge and Brent Todd are finding very lucrative ?<br />
If my reputation was as battered as badly as some planners eg Vestar,I&#8217;d be cashing up and moving offshore.<br />
The volume of advertising which Hanover is doing,reminds me of the volume of advertising carried out by Capital &amp; Merchant Finance,the company that if you looked at their website and asked to be directed to a planner,gave you only two options no matter what part of NZ you were in&#8212;Broadbase or Vestar.<br />
I have had only one retired couple ask for advice in regard to these reverse mortgages.<br />
The couple had a house worth about $600,000 and little cash income.<br />
After reading the Sentinel brochure,I was very negative,and the conclusion we came to was for each of his five children to come up with say $2000 per annum,<br />
which would in effect amount to a compulsory savings scheme for them,as they would end up with the house in due course.<br />
The Herald reported that Tasman Mortgages limited,which apparently had funded 80% of the blue Chip Deals,had been sending out default letters.<br />
They reported that TML was once owned by Blue Chip Financial Solutions Ltd,which I note was originally the cashed up shell NZ Salmon Company Ltd,and has interesting shareholders such as ANZ bank[and Mr Bryers of course.]<br />
Indeed yes they did own 100% of TML until August 2007,when a 70% share was sold to Lombard Mortgages Limited.<br />
BCFSL[now called Tasman Financial Group ltd] still own 30% of TML.<br />
Some of the shareholders in Lombard Properties Limited must be rather embarrassed at the fact that a reported 2000 investors may lose their homes out of this mess.<br />
With LML being 100% owned by Lombard Group Ltd whose directors include D A Graham and W P Jeffries,who are also substantial shareolders along with ex MP Hugh Templeton,it is not a pretty sight.<br />
The question is,what is the primary source of the funds for the Blue Chip finance ?<br />
I sent a copy of Chris Lee&#8217;s interest ratings with an orange highlight on Lombard as an E rated investment,to some people who had unwittingly invested with a company called Lombard Finance &amp; Investments Limited.<br />
I have not yet investigated where the paper trail leads.<br />
As for Dr Patrick Caragata,don&#8217;t you remember Tony Alexander the BNZ economist printing in the media that economists get it wrong 80% of the time,and that there was no point asking him where to invest your money.<br />
Economists are just another breed of reporters.<br />
Gareth Morgan is the only economist I would go to see speak,purely because he is entertaining.<br />
BS refers to ING.<br />
I note from one disclosure statement from an ING planner,that the practice is required to invest 55% of overall client funds in ING products.<br />
The widow with the $1,000,000 in ING Diversified Yield Fund was through ANZ bank,which must have had an internal directive to invest 100% of client funds in the one investment.<br />
The lady would not have a clue what she was getting herself into,and if ANZ had told her to stick with term deposits,she would have followed their advice.<br />
I note that the head of ANZ in NZ was making a speech to the effect that all the riske were fully disclosed to such clients.<br />
If you put this lady on the stand in court,a judge would throw the book at ANZ for inept advice.<br />
If ANZ do not front up to correct this mess,there will be litigation for sure.<br />
I would therefore tend to conclude that the 30% level which BS mentions,sounds very credible.</p>
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		<title>By: Peanut H</title>
		<link>http://www.goodreturns.co.nz/blog/sparks-fly-between-advisers/comment-page-1#comment-3911</link>
		<dc:creator>Peanut H</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 24 Apr 2008 12:05:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.goodreturns.co.nz/sparks-fly-between-advisers#comment-3911</guid>
		<description>Red Dog talked about an hourly rate of $1265 + GST ”. Chris Lee probably thinks he and his four mates who are the top NZ advisers deserve Red Dogs $1265 + GST per hour. Lee also probably thinks the rest of us should earn $12.65 per hour as Car Groomers, belch, hic, burp, pass me another Tui Majella, if Hanover goes under then Lee will be joining us at the car wash.

Spare a thought for the older folk who borrowed $50k reverse annuity 3 years ago. They now owe north of $66K. Today one of the providers lifted their interest rate to 12.25%. Another 3 and a bit years the debt will be about $100k.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Red Dog talked about an hourly rate of $1265 + GST ”. Chris Lee probably thinks he and his four mates who are the top NZ advisers deserve Red Dogs $1265 + GST per hour. Lee also probably thinks the rest of us should earn $12.65 per hour as Car Groomers, belch, hic, burp, pass me another Tui Majella, if Hanover goes under then Lee will be joining us at the car wash.</p>
<p>Spare a thought for the older folk who borrowed $50k reverse annuity 3 years ago. They now owe north of $66K. Today one of the providers lifted their interest rate to 12.25%. Another 3 and a bit years the debt will be about $100k.</p>
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		<title>By: Red Dog The pirate Guy</title>
		<link>http://www.goodreturns.co.nz/blog/sparks-fly-between-advisers/comment-page-1#comment-3907</link>
		<dc:creator>Red Dog The pirate Guy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 24 Apr 2008 09:28:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.goodreturns.co.nz/sparks-fly-between-advisers#comment-3907</guid>
		<description>There has been talk in the media of complaints by corporates of the very high legal fees they have been paying to NZ&#039;s top law practices.
One article I read suggested that instead of paying over $600 per hour to one of the top practices,they could employ their own lawyers inhouse at an estimate cost of $121 per hour.
That makes sense to me,and implies that they consider that someone of quality can be employed for a bit over $200,000 per annum.
A lady I was recently talking to confirmed that her sibling,who is with a top Wellington practice,charges out at $650 per hour.
In my area,the average large scale legal firm partner charge out rate would be around $265 per annum.
I recall some time ago talking to a top litigation lawyer in regard to why someone of his skill level would wish to become a judge.
Well he said,if you were a top QC in Auckland charging in excess of $1000 per hour,why would you bother.
With that in mind,reading some of the disclosure statements for financial planners has been very interesting.
On page seven of one disclosure,I came across this comment---
&quot;&#039;Hourly Rate&#039;&#039;---&quot;We carry out limited hourly rate work under special circumstances,in which case the hourly rate is $1265 + GST &quot;
Why be a top Auckland QC with all the stress when you can clip the ticket as a planner for that level of remuneration[plus of course the consultation,management,front end and trail commissions].
And yes,that particular advisor did use Bridgecorp for two to three year terms,and has been caught napping.
That leads me to conclude that the price quality relationship must inevitably be viewed with veiled eyes.
All the glitters is not gold.
As for Hanover,Chris Lee knows much more than I will ever know due to his many contacts.
In regard to rumours,my experience has been that where there is smoke there is generally fire in due course.
Hopefully Hanover can consolidate and perhaps downsize.
However,with so many investors determined to exit most finance companies,it is a difficult road to walk.
Not suprisingly,Chris reserves his judgement.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>There has been talk in the media of complaints by corporates of the very high legal fees they have been paying to NZ&#8217;s top law practices.<br />
One article I read suggested that instead of paying over $600 per hour to one of the top practices,they could employ their own lawyers inhouse at an estimate cost of $121 per hour.<br />
That makes sense to me,and implies that they consider that someone of quality can be employed for a bit over $200,000 per annum.<br />
A lady I was recently talking to confirmed that her sibling,who is with a top Wellington practice,charges out at $650 per hour.<br />
In my area,the average large scale legal firm partner charge out rate would be around $265 per annum.<br />
I recall some time ago talking to a top litigation lawyer in regard to why someone of his skill level would wish to become a judge.<br />
Well he said,if you were a top QC in Auckland charging in excess of $1000 per hour,why would you bother.<br />
With that in mind,reading some of the disclosure statements for financial planners has been very interesting.<br />
On page seven of one disclosure,I came across this comment&#8212;<br />
&#8220;&#8216;Hourly Rate&#8221;&#8212;&#8221;We carry out limited hourly rate work under special circumstances,in which case the hourly rate is $1265 + GST &#8221;<br />
Why be a top Auckland QC with all the stress when you can clip the ticket as a planner for that level of remuneration[plus of course the consultation,management,front end and trail commissions].<br />
And yes,that particular advisor did use Bridgecorp for two to three year terms,and has been caught napping.<br />
That leads me to conclude that the price quality relationship must inevitably be viewed with veiled eyes.<br />
All the glitters is not gold.<br />
As for Hanover,Chris Lee knows much more than I will ever know due to his many contacts.<br />
In regard to rumours,my experience has been that where there is smoke there is generally fire in due course.<br />
Hopefully Hanover can consolidate and perhaps downsize.<br />
However,with so many investors determined to exit most finance companies,it is a difficult road to walk.<br />
Not suprisingly,Chris reserves his judgement.</p>
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		<title>By: Majella</title>
		<link>http://www.goodreturns.co.nz/blog/sparks-fly-between-advisers/comment-page-1#comment-3898</link>
		<dc:creator>Majella</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 24 Apr 2008 02:53:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.goodreturns.co.nz/sparks-fly-between-advisers#comment-3898</guid>
		<description>Mr Lee has gone to print again, re Hanover. Clearly, HE knows BETTER than anyone else (e.g. Red Dog) though I note that he is not yet prepared to re-rate Hanover at this time (despite Fitch&#039;s apparent confidence).

Ouch! I WAS going to copy part of today&#039;s e-mail &quot;Taking Stock&quot; but the copyright apparently does not allow fair use, even with source acknowledgement. Pity...still a few selected quotes might be overlooked by the high court?

&quot; Hanover has never been top shelf, but it has survived the last, difficult, 12 months – uncomfortably, but without failing to meet its obligations.&quot;

&quot;But Hanover deserves some credit. It did not lend to absurd multiples of its capital (as Lombard did); it was never managed stupidly (as Bridgecorp, Capital Merchant and others were); it never paid double brokerage; and it did get itself externally rated, even if its grading is one pip below investment grade.&quot;

&quot;Hanover has suffered from a series of rumours and innuendo, often in those appallingly supervised vacuous website forums where public bar louts practise their belching to the accompanying sniggers of other juveniles who find comfort in this sort of crassness.&quot;

(Guess he means us...)

&quot;Happily the adult population by-passes this so the worst of the malicious and meaningless innuendo gains no currency, leaving Hanover to focus on real issues.&quot;

&quot;A less resilient company might have found this flow of rumours too damaging to survive.  Happily the adults in the industry checks out rumours before publishing them.&quot;

&quot;Clearly Fitch has optimism.
I hope to resume our rating of Hanover later this year.&quot;

Do I sense a small sigh of relief?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Mr Lee has gone to print again, re Hanover. Clearly, HE knows BETTER than anyone else (e.g. Red Dog) though I note that he is not yet prepared to re-rate Hanover at this time (despite Fitch&#8217;s apparent confidence).</p>
<p>Ouch! I WAS going to copy part of today&#8217;s e-mail &#8220;Taking Stock&#8221; but the copyright apparently does not allow fair use, even with source acknowledgement. Pity&#8230;still a few selected quotes might be overlooked by the high court?</p>
<p>&#8221; Hanover has never been top shelf, but it has survived the last, difficult, 12 months – uncomfortably, but without failing to meet its obligations.&#8221;</p>
<p>&#8220;But Hanover deserves some credit. It did not lend to absurd multiples of its capital (as Lombard did); it was never managed stupidly (as Bridgecorp, Capital Merchant and others were); it never paid double brokerage; and it did get itself externally rated, even if its grading is one pip below investment grade.&#8221;</p>
<p>&#8220;Hanover has suffered from a series of rumours and innuendo, often in those appallingly supervised vacuous website forums where public bar louts practise their belching to the accompanying sniggers of other juveniles who find comfort in this sort of crassness.&#8221;</p>
<p>(Guess he means us&#8230;)</p>
<p>&#8220;Happily the adult population by-passes this so the worst of the malicious and meaningless innuendo gains no currency, leaving Hanover to focus on real issues.&#8221;</p>
<p>&#8220;A less resilient company might have found this flow of rumours too damaging to survive.  Happily the adults in the industry checks out rumours before publishing them.&#8221;</p>
<p>&#8220;Clearly Fitch has optimism.<br />
I hope to resume our rating of Hanover later this year.&#8221;</p>
<p>Do I sense a small sigh of relief?</p>
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		<title>By: Majella</title>
		<link>http://www.goodreturns.co.nz/blog/sparks-fly-between-advisers/comment-page-1#comment-3897</link>
		<dc:creator>Majella</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 24 Apr 2008 02:39:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.goodreturns.co.nz/sparks-fly-between-advisers#comment-3897</guid>
		<description>Oops - it was Fitch (not S&amp;P)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Oops &#8211; it was Fitch (not S&amp;P)</p>
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		<title>By: Red Dog The pirate Guy</title>
		<link>http://www.goodreturns.co.nz/blog/sparks-fly-between-advisers/comment-page-1#comment-3894</link>
		<dc:creator>Red Dog The pirate Guy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 24 Apr 2008 01:55:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.goodreturns.co.nz/sparks-fly-between-advisers#comment-3894</guid>
		<description>are better than those of some of the other deceased financiers,if the worst eventuates.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>are better than those of some of the other deceased financiers,if the worst eventuates.</p>
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		<title>By: Red Dog The pirate Guy</title>
		<link>http://www.goodreturns.co.nz/blog/sparks-fly-between-advisers/comment-page-1#comment-3893</link>
		<dc:creator>Red Dog The pirate Guy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 24 Apr 2008 01:51:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.goodreturns.co.nz/sparks-fly-between-advisers#comment-3893</guid>
		<description>The greedy level of dividends declared to the shareholders of Hanover Finance Limited is of concern to me,as was the greedy level of dividends declared by Provincial Finance Limited.
I have not seen the S &amp; P rating,and do not know what evidence they used to compile their ratings.
What I do know is that every financial planner whose portfolios I see is withdrawing all of their clients&#039; funds from Hanover Finance Ltd as those debentures mature.
There have been template letters written by planners to their clients in this respect,and I have seen one letter from a sizeable planner which stated that Hanover had been informed of this decision.
So if all of those financial planners whose clients have already been hit with other investment losses no longer support Hanover,who is going to support it ?
Many of the debenture investments I see with Hanover,do not mature until late 2008.
Therefore it is going to be in the last three months of the 2008 calendar year that the chickens come home to roost.
Do S &amp; P know about these facts,or is it a &#039;&#039;now&#039;&#039; credit rating ?
I am now looking at page three of the April edition of the publication called &#039;&#039;Business South&quot;.
There have been rumours in certain Central Otago circles for some time not to invest in Hanover.
The article &#039;&#039;Speculators Days numbered-for now&#039;&#039; talks about the Jacks Point Development.
Has anyone looked at this website to see what Fletcher Homes are hoping some mugs will pay nearly $1 million each for ?
I quote from the article-&#039;&#039;Meanwhile,the state of the residential market even in upmarket Queenstown is showing the same signs of correction as other parts of the country.The developers of Jack&#039;s Point are now competing with Hanover Properties and Fletcher residential to whom they sold wholesale blocks of 200 sections and 350 sections respectively at Jacks Point a couple of years ago.Settlement payments have been made and titles issued for nearly 200 of these sections.
Fletcher has built about 40 speculative homes for nearly $1 million each,while Hanover is competing its first showhome.
The developers are offering sections at $50,000 less than the $425,000 being offered by Fletchers and Hanover.
At the same time Bayleys is advertising nine Jacks Point sections.Offers are being invited for them plus a handful of other developed properties and a mortgagee sale[taking the number of mortgagee sales in the resort town to about 10 since Christmas. &quot;
I read recently that Hanover derives 90% of its funding from investors.I will have a look at their accounts to confirm this.
It therefore does not take an Einstein to work out why Chris Lee has not rerated Hanover from a B to a D or an E,but has simply not rated it.
So Majella,I can tell you that the Central Otago rumours go back at least 12 months,and the actions of all the other brokers have in no way been influenced by Chris Lee.
The momentum of withdrawal was already well underway,and reflects the planning industry fleeing for safety.
A comment one planner made to me was that in the end,it came down to an evaluation of the owners of Hanover--were they in the mould of an Allan Hubbard or were they in the mould of a Mr Bridgecorp.
I know what my answer is.
Those of you in the jet set world may have a different answer.
It is to be hoped that the quality of Hanover&#039;s assets</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The greedy level of dividends declared to the shareholders of Hanover Finance Limited is of concern to me,as was the greedy level of dividends declared by Provincial Finance Limited.<br />
I have not seen the S &amp; P rating,and do not know what evidence they used to compile their ratings.<br />
What I do know is that every financial planner whose portfolios I see is withdrawing all of their clients&#8217; funds from Hanover Finance Ltd as those debentures mature.<br />
There have been template letters written by planners to their clients in this respect,and I have seen one letter from a sizeable planner which stated that Hanover had been informed of this decision.<br />
So if all of those financial planners whose clients have already been hit with other investment losses no longer support Hanover,who is going to support it ?<br />
Many of the debenture investments I see with Hanover,do not mature until late 2008.<br />
Therefore it is going to be in the last three months of the 2008 calendar year that the chickens come home to roost.<br />
Do S &amp; P know about these facts,or is it a &#8221;now&#8221; credit rating ?<br />
I am now looking at page three of the April edition of the publication called &#8221;Business South&#8221;.<br />
There have been rumours in certain Central Otago circles for some time not to invest in Hanover.<br />
The article &#8221;Speculators Days numbered-for now&#8221; talks about the Jacks Point Development.<br />
Has anyone looked at this website to see what Fletcher Homes are hoping some mugs will pay nearly $1 million each for ?<br />
I quote from the article-&#8221;Meanwhile,the state of the residential market even in upmarket Queenstown is showing the same signs of correction as other parts of the country.The developers of Jack&#8217;s Point are now competing with Hanover Properties and Fletcher residential to whom they sold wholesale blocks of 200 sections and 350 sections respectively at Jacks Point a couple of years ago.Settlement payments have been made and titles issued for nearly 200 of these sections.<br />
Fletcher has built about 40 speculative homes for nearly $1 million each,while Hanover is competing its first showhome.<br />
The developers are offering sections at $50,000 less than the $425,000 being offered by Fletchers and Hanover.<br />
At the same time Bayleys is advertising nine Jacks Point sections.Offers are being invited for them plus a handful of other developed properties and a mortgagee sale[taking the number of mortgagee sales in the resort town to about 10 since Christmas. &#8221;<br />
I read recently that Hanover derives 90% of its funding from investors.I will have a look at their accounts to confirm this.<br />
It therefore does not take an Einstein to work out why Chris Lee has not rerated Hanover from a B to a D or an E,but has simply not rated it.<br />
So Majella,I can tell you that the Central Otago rumours go back at least 12 months,and the actions of all the other brokers have in no way been influenced by Chris Lee.<br />
The momentum of withdrawal was already well underway,and reflects the planning industry fleeing for safety.<br />
A comment one planner made to me was that in the end,it came down to an evaluation of the owners of Hanover&#8211;were they in the mould of an Allan Hubbard or were they in the mould of a Mr Bridgecorp.<br />
I know what my answer is.<br />
Those of you in the jet set world may have a different answer.<br />
It is to be hoped that the quality of Hanover&#8217;s assets</p>
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		<title>By: Majella</title>
		<link>http://www.goodreturns.co.nz/blog/sparks-fly-between-advisers/comment-page-1#comment-3892</link>
		<dc:creator>Majella</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 24 Apr 2008 00:16:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.goodreturns.co.nz/sparks-fly-between-advisers#comment-3892</guid>
		<description>Mr. Lee should be extremely cautious. No one is completely without fault. &quot;Let he who is without sin cast the first stone&quot; comes to mind. 

An interesting change arose on his website recently - the total disappearance of Hanover Finance...and a day or so later a note was added stating &quot;Please note until further notice we are not in a position to accurately rate Hanover/United/Fai.&quot; Why not? S&amp;P just reconfirmed its rating? But then, he has already shown that he has little confidence in any rating company (possibly with some justification). 

Still, the obvious question arises - what of his existing investors with holdings in Hanover, made on his recommendation? If Hanover IS in a tenuous situation, AND Mr. Lee pulls his &quot;rating&quot;, might he not be seen to have been influential in whatever happens to Hanover next? A massive drop in re-investment can severly strain even a sound, strong finance company, let alone utterly sink a more fragile one.

Will he repeat his offer made ot his Provincial clients? How deep ARE his pockets?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Mr. Lee should be extremely cautious. No one is completely without fault. &#8220;Let he who is without sin cast the first stone&#8221; comes to mind. </p>
<p>An interesting change arose on his website recently &#8211; the total disappearance of Hanover Finance&#8230;and a day or so later a note was added stating &#8220;Please note until further notice we are not in a position to accurately rate Hanover/United/Fai.&#8221; Why not? S&amp;P just reconfirmed its rating? But then, he has already shown that he has little confidence in any rating company (possibly with some justification). </p>
<p>Still, the obvious question arises &#8211; what of his existing investors with holdings in Hanover, made on his recommendation? If Hanover IS in a tenuous situation, AND Mr. Lee pulls his &#8220;rating&#8221;, might he not be seen to have been influential in whatever happens to Hanover next? A massive drop in re-investment can severly strain even a sound, strong finance company, let alone utterly sink a more fragile one.</p>
<p>Will he repeat his offer made ot his Provincial clients? How deep ARE his pockets?</p>
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